As you grow your company, how do you bring other people in and not lose what you believe makes you special?
As you grow your company, how do you bring other people in and not lose what you believe makes you special?
Our co-host Jeff Grant has an interesting story about how he ended up a founder after going to prison. He’s now minister to white collar criminals through Progressive Prison Ministries, and he's figuring out how to scale.
Watch the full session: https://bit.ly/3dli8Br
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Scott Case 0:00
Welcome to Founders Focus, a podcast made for founders by founders. I'm Scott Case, CEO and co-founder of Upside. And I created Founders Focus to help share free resources and actionable advice. Together, we're building a community for business leaders, entrepreneurs and founders to come together to tackle today's challenges. This podcast is powered by my awesome team at Upside. Please visit foundersfocus.com to join the live video sessions or to catch up on past topics.
Scott Case 0:28
And with that, I am absolutely thrilled to introduce our co-host for today. His name is Jeff Grant, and he's the co-founder and Minister at Progressive Prison Ministries. And Jeff's gonna introduce himself and we're going to talk about a lot of different things. But believe it or not, we're actually going to talk mostly about Jeff's startup because he's a founder of an organization, happens to be a ministry focused on some very interesting topics, but we're gonna dive in from there. But Jeff, why don't you just give a brief intro about you?
Jeff Grant 1:03
Thanks for having me. And thanks for acknowledging that I'm a startup because I recognize that I'm a trailblazer, doing something that no one's done before. And that has some issues attached to it. It also has opportunities. So I'm balancing those every day. I went to prison for white collar crime. I committed SBA loan fraud post 9/11, back in 2001, and I wound up going to prison for it, came out and actually graduated seminary. And then after a couple of rounds in different churches and different faith based organizations, my wife and I started a ministry to serve white collar criminals and their families – very misunderstood, underrepresented group of people, people kind of associate necessarily with Bernie Madoffs and all kinds of sensationalized headlines that you read about in the Wall Street Journal or on CNBC. But the reality is, is that the overwhelming majority of people who are prosecuted for white collar crimes are pretty much people down the street – attorneys, accountants, parents of your children's friends who've made some mistakes. Sometimes it's because of mental illness. Sometimes it's because of drugs and alcohol, sometimes greed, or just desperation, or just caught up kind of in this crazy societal need to get ahead, and they're incapable of handling it, like me, that's what happened.
Jeff Grant 2:50
So we dedicate ourselves to a long view of the process. So like anyone who goes through these things, what happens is that they hire a lawyer, and they don't want to go to prison, and the lawyer takes him to sentencing and then they leave off like Robert Redford at the end of the candidate saying, All right, what do I do now. And we take the long view. And so the most important thing for us is that nobody 10 years later is looking back at their trajectory or their journey, and saying, If only I had known then what I know now I would have made a lot of decisions differently. So we try to provide them the perspective and coach them all the way through all these different decisions and provide them a lot of resources, introductions to a lot of professionals. And we've been doing it for five or six years, full time now. Last Monday night, we had our 250th white collar support group online, so it's the right week to be talking to you.
Scott Case 3:54
It's awesome. Look, as an entrepreneur, and I think, like you said, it's a range of people. It's very easy to see how business leaders, even those that are well intentioned, get themselves upside down. And, I suspect that a lot of your members or your customers were surprised at how far, how quickly and how bad it gotten.
Scott Case 4:31
One of the things that happens a lot as entrepreneurs is we sort of put ourselves out there, we have sort of a big dream, we go to build a thing, and things don't always go the way we expect, right? There's that old analogy of you jumped off the cliff and you're building the plane or the parachute on your way down, and sometimes you don't actually accomplish that and you end up hitting sort of the bottom. So can you talk a little bit about, staying within that entrepreneurial zone, like, what are some of the things that you've observed? And maybe what are the signs to be paying attention to if you're in a spot that could kind of get you into trouble?
Jeff Grant 5:13
I was giving a lecture to a class at a university in Pennsylvania not that long ago. And one of the students asked me, if there was one thing you learned from all of this, what would it be? And I didn't have to hesitate. I said, I would live within my means – probably that and marry the right person. Two critical decisions. It seems to me that what everyone does is they're spending or they're projecting, or as entrepreneurs, they always think that things are going to be better tomorrow than they are today. And in a way, as an entrepreneur, you have to do that, you have to be positive, you have to be optimistic, but what you can't be is a dreamer. You can't have rose colored glasses so that you can't see the red flags that are ahead of you. Red flags are the same color if you're wearing rose colored glasses.
Jeff Grant 6:26
So many times people know that they're pushing ethical borders, but they can make excuses – that's what the standard is in my industry, everybody's doing it, I'll do it just once and then never do it again. Oh my god, it's just over and over and over again. That was true for me. I think what really interests me about the conversation with you, and certainly the prep conversation we had before this a couple of weeks ago, was that it's challenged me to look at the difference between the advice and resources I give to other people and then what's authentic to me, what's true for me, what are my strengths and my barriers? And because I don't want to be destined to do it again, the worst of all possible things is that I do it again. So I'm happy to talk about that. But I actually had some awakenings since you and I last spoke.
Scott Case 7:33
Oh, well, that's good. Well, let's come to that. We've got a question here around what does Progressive Prison Ministries do and I think if I can play it back, you can just confirm this – somebody has been charged or committed or has recognized that they've committed a white collar crime and is trying to figure out what to do about it, you sort of pick up from there and take them forward. Is that a pretty accurate description?
Jeff Grant 8:00
Yeah, other words could be, in different contexts, could be concilliary. If you're swimming with piranhas, it's good to have a shark you're strapping to your leg to protect you. The thing is, is that when you get prosecuted for white collar crime, you become completely isolated. Friends probably abandon you, business relationships abandon you, even family members abandon you, your lawyer is telling you not to speak to anybody, and you're living in this vacuum in your own head. But there's so many decisions that have to be made. And your criminal lawyer is not going to be the one to help you through virtually any of them, except for what's a direct line to sentencing. So if you have a business, you have partners, you have real estate relationships, maybe you're going to have to get a divorce, maybe you're gonna have to talk to bankruptcy people, all kinds of business decisions, and then emotional decisions, and where do you turn to be able to have an outlet so that you can actually survive all of this.
Jeff Grant 9:13
And since we're also trying to shepherd people from material ways of life to more spiritual ways of life, and that is from a life of more to a life of abundance, which we can talk about. How do you do that? I mean, when your entire life has basically been dedicated to business, or to narcissistic kind of things that you would do to support that lifestyle, and then all of a sudden, you're told by maybe licensing authority, oh by the way, you can't do that anymore. And what are you looking at? What does the abyss look like? And how frightening is that? And so mostly what we're doing with people is getting them into radical acceptance of reality, this is your situation, this is it, and you can mourn the past as much as you want, or you can project the future, but the reality is right now, what do you need to do right now to benefit you and your family the most? And to a person of the hundreds of people we've worked with, nobody can answer that question. Living in isolation, everybody's got to come into community. Otherwise, they're just bouncing off the walls themselves, and they make bad decisions.
Scott Case 10:48
I think a lot of founders, we've talked about this here, too, even when you're staying in the lanes from an ethical or moral and fiscal standpoint, you're still often isolated as an entrepreneur. So the combination of being isolated and being in your own head as an entrepreneur, and then also finding yourself upside down with the law, you got compounding errors on top of it, which has to make it that much more difficult.
Scott Case 11:18
I want to shift gears a little bit, and then we'll come back around to the ministry again, in a more formal way. We've got a few other questions. But when we were speaking last, you brought something up that I think is a common challenge for a lot of entrepreneurs. And that is, we build something usually with a small team, maybe it's ourselves and a co-founder, two or three people, and we get to a place where we need to figure out how to scale ourselves. And I see this a lot with entrepreneurs who are like the head salesperson, which is often the case, when you're first starting out, I'm the one going and getting new business. But at some point, I've got to hire somebody to go get that new business, and in almost every case that somebody is going to be half as good as you are on their best day. And we titled this session, like how do you grow your business without losing your soul? It's a little play on the fact that you're a ministry, but like we all face this thing where it's like, we're so embroiled in our business, how is it possible that we're gonna be able to extend that to somebody else? So I'm curious, like, how are you wrestling through that? What sort of choices are you making? Or what challenges are you facing as you think through what that means for your business?
Jeff Grant 12:32
It's a massive problem. It is, especially as a trailblazer as no one's ever done what I'm doing before. And this isn't just like in a business setting where it's Airbnb, for example, where no one's ever done that before, even though other people did do that before them. Here, people are putting their lives in my hands, so I have to be paying very close attention. But even I made mistakes in the way that I looked at people. For example, most people who commit white collar crimes, either are or generally were affluent, and so one of the reasons that there's very little compassion or empathy is because there's a lot of schadenfreude that people are looking at, at the rise and fall of successful people. And there's some kind of sick joy that people take in that. But even I was looking at the people I work with as wealthy people as people with a lot of resources. And the reality is, is that in the sum game of all of this, all the chips have been moved to the other side of the table. So really people who have very limited resources, and in some ways, they have less resources even than people who live in the inner city who have inner city problems, because those communities, unfortunately, have a lot of built in kind of understanding of the criminal justice system, or there were actual resources, social services and things that are going on. It took me a while to figure out that I was actually looking and working with a community of people who have less, not who have more. So how do I deal with impoverished people, even if they don't look like they're impoverished, they could be wearing nice clothes, but what they don't have, they may not have money anymore, they may not be able to protect themselves, they may not be able to advance their lives. And so I started to examine what happens in other liminal communities and particularly what I did was I studied the underground economy of the way that people get ahead and even in the immigration world. And what they do is they can't afford lawyers, they can't afford to be able to protect themselves, so what they have is clinics. And so there'll be 30 or 40 of them in a room with one person in the front of the room, who is the facilitator, who's the professional, and they talk about their problems, and they talk about their issues all together. And what happens is, is that they can afford to do that, or they're underwritten by the state sometimes, but they can afford to do that, because they're all together. That was the reason really that we started the support group. So it wasn't just that we wanted a, say an AA kind of support group where people just discuss their feelings, what we wanted it was to be a real place where people could actually get resources and get feedback, and could grow as a community, and learn the things about what their issues are that they wouldn't learn anywhere else. Because your lawyer is not going to tell you. Your lawyer is there, he's a mechanic, he's there for a specific job. But how are you going to grow and learn through all of this, and we found that if we do it in community, we can solve that problem. And so on any given time, although we come together for an hour and a half every Monday night, everybody has created their own relationships and side relationships and brought resources to one another. And it really exists. It's this kind of amorphous organic mass of people trying to lift each other up and help each other. That's a miracle that I don't take responsibility for. I just happen to have seen it and brought it together. But the truth is, is that without everybody's buy in, it doesn't work. So there's an example of solving a problem that I didn't even know was a problem until I started to dissect it.
Scott Case 17:09
I like what you did there, because I think that one of the things when we look at scaling is, rather than trying to replicate yourself, what you did was you looked at your customer base and said, Okay, how can the customers play a role in helping to solve this problem? And you see this, like, large tech companies, like if you've ever gone into Apple forums, most of the questions that are being asked and answered are being asked and answered by Apple customers. And it's a community that has been built around them.
Scott Case 17:41
When you look at your own personal as the, you know, the CEO of your business, how are you thinking about, because you do have the group sessions, but you also take on individual clients that you're coaching through this process and giving them feedback on, so how are you thinking about bringing on another person to help take on some of those clients? And what's your strategy there?
Jeff Grant 18:08
Well, it's the biggest single problem. And that kind of goes back to the two weeks of enlightenment that I've had since you when I last spoke. Because what I've come to understand, because I was asking myself that question, because you asked me that question a couple of weeks ago, and what I've come to understand is that I'm a world class number two. I am the person that you want to have helping you solve your problems. But there's a difference between that and being in the decision maker role where there's no one doing the job that I do. And I look back at my business because I had sizable business, I had 20 people working for me, and we were general counsel to some large corporation, some of whom got into big trouble, by the way, which is how I learned all of this, when I was General Counsel for those companies.
Jeff Grant 19:10
And now I'm looking at my skill set. And my skill set is to basically take anybody who's underwater and help them get to the surface. And so just that means swimming around things. That means understanding the nature of what they need to get to the surface to breathe. But once they're at the surface, I'm not sure I'm the guy who is equipped to help them soar. So is there a business in helping people get to the surface? And the answer is yes, because there are millions of people who need to get to the surface because they're drowning. The problem is, I have to soar, I have to be the one to soar, otherwise, I can't build a business out of getting people to the surface. That's been the problem I have found in scaling. So do I think that I'm replicable? Well, I think it would be really arrogant to believe that many of the things that I do for people can't be replicated. And I've set out on a path to do that. So even on my podcast, I interview forensic accountants, I interview investigators, everybody who's involved in the various aspects of white collar crime, or investigating or getting down to the kernel, the kerygma of what's really going on with people, which is what the key to all of this is in helping them solve their problems, because they're extremely complicated. Do I think that there are other people who are capable of solving these problems for people? Yes. Do I think that the combination of that and having like bedside manners, so that you can actually shepherd them through their problems, and they'll trust you, it's hard.
Scott Case 21:17
So I love your insight. And I'm gonna play it back to you a little, I think understanding as a leader, even if you're the founder, or you're the owner of your business, what you're really good at. You may not be the right person to be the CEO of the ministry, or you may need to go out and hire somebody who's going to be that leader and be the decision maker. And you actually see that if you zoom way out, if any of you're familiar with Microsoft, you know, Bill Gates stepped out and basically became like, the chief architect, or whatever his title was, but that business got to a place where he was the wrong person to be running it anymore, and sort of looked at what his strengths were.
Scott Case 21:58
And so I think, understanding what your strengths are, there's a question here about, how do you let go? So you want to bring somebody else on to take responsibility for something. And what's interesting is, in your case, Jeff, you need to let go of the leadership responsibility of the whole organization, which is a big lift. Most of the time as entrepreneurs, we're paying out parts of the business as quickly as we can to get somebody else to take them on. And so to the question, we got around trust, the most important thing you can do is to set clear expectations for the person, make sure that they have ownership, which is both responsibility and authority, and then let them go and check in on the expectations as you go along. But you have to let go. If you try to micromanage them to death, you'll fail, they'll fail and you'll fail, you're setting them up for failure. So my counsel on that is when you parcel it out, set clear expectations, and give them the responsibilities that you want. And then they have to have the authority to actually execute, which if that means you have to have a budget, or they have to have access to tools or information or whatever else, they've got to be able to get there.
Scott Case 23:07
So I want to come back to Jeff, a couple of questions that have come up as we've gone along the way. So I think there's still a question around sort of the services that the ministry provides, which I think is basically like a form of executive coaching through the process, connecting them with resources, making sure that they have access to information, somebody to talk to when things happen. Is there more to it on the individual basis? There's the support group, which you talked about, but is there a roadmap you typically lay out for someone when they come to you and say, hey, I've committed this crime I need help getting through this time?
Jeff Grant 23:48
The answer to that is yes. But it's largely dependent upon what the point of entry is. Because it's very easy to see like in your mind, someone gets arrested, and then they're looking for resources. But the reality is that they get arrested, and mostly it's fight, flight or freeze, and mostly freeze. So these people are in trauma, and so much trauma, and they have to make decisions very quickly. So typically, what happens is that someone gets arrested, the FBI taps him on their shoulder, and who's that first phone call going to go to, and it's going to go to someone they trust, it's going to go to their corporate lawyer, if they're a business person, it's going to go to someone else they know who's been in a similar situation. And that person is going to say to them something like you got to call John Smith, he's the lawyer for you, and they go, and they take the interview with John Smith and there's no way for them to know if John Smith is the right lawyer for them. They don't know what the rubric should look like. They don't know what their issues are. They don't know if this guy has the right background. They don't know if he's got the right temperament, they can work together, because this is a very intimate relationship. So what I would love to tell everybody is call me.
Jeff Grant 25:30
I understand. I've worked with over 400 people who've been through this. I've been through it myself. And I can nurse you through this type of decision. Since 50% of the people who hire white collar attorneys wind up changing attorneys. Close to 100% of people sitting in a prison camp somewhere or sitting around talking about how the mistakes that their attorneys made, or the mistakes they made in hiring their attorneys, you have to understand the gravity of this decision. That's true of every single decision along the way. More as we become more established, and as we become a go to point of entry, people are relying upon us, and on me, because we have a team, but they're relying upon us for micro decisions around a macro plan. And that's critical. So is it success coaching? You know, yes, we are definitely helping people move towards their own authenticity and towards a towards a life plan that works for them, but mostly, what we're doing is we're balancing tactics and strategy to get them through a very, very hairy part of their life at a time when they're in such trauma that they can't even trust themselves.
Scott Case 27:14
Yeah, I mean, the part about it is, I think, and one of the questions that came up here is, and I'd like to see if we can get to it. If not, maybe we'll have you back again. But I think that there's, you're really running a trauma emergency room, where you're helping get this person to sort of be back on their feet, you're not trying to get them to figure out how to rebuild their life just yet. You're just trying to make sure that they survive, whatever has happened, you know, the car accident equivalent at the emergency room. So it's about patching the person up and getting them through this stuff to figure out who the specialists are, who are the experts, etc. when they don't have anybody until it's unhinged.
Jeff Grant 27:48
There's a lot of triage, there is.
Scott Case 27:50
Yeah. So I want to come to a question that's, I'm gonna frame it the way it's been framed around, you've been sentenced or you've served your time as a white collar criminal, how do you restart and the framing to me is, even if you haven't committed any wrongdoing at all, but you had to shut your company down, right? If you want to restart again, you've got to rebuild things. And so what do you think are the one or two most important things to do once you're above that surface and maybe you sort of come out of it? And you've been through that and I'm sure you've observed your clients. What are some of the important things? I imagine one of them is, if they've done it well, they've recognized, and they've owned their situation, that's probably the first thing, but what are some of the other pieces that they that a person needs to do to start to rebuild, and maybe starting another company or restarting their lives?
Jeff Grant 28:50
Some of this is gonna sound philosophical, because we're not relating it to a specific set of circumstances. But the first thing is to give up the concept of rebuilding anything, because there's no looking back, there's only looking forward. And the great mistake that people make is thinking that they want to get back to their old life. What we have is a new life. And we don't know what that looks like yet. But most of that old life is generally not available. It's just not there. You have to give up hope for a better past. It just doesn't exist. So what does that mean?
Jeff Grant 29:38
And part of it is understanding that we live so long these days that almost everyone goes through some kind of life altering event, where you live two lives. The problem is the attachment to the old life. So if you're going to be, for example, a hedge fund manager in one life and a job janitor in another life, I don't know many janitors who would mind becoming a hedge fund manager in their second life, I probably know a lot of hedge fund managers who would mind becoming a janitor in their second life. And yet, those two lives may have very little to do with one another no matter what, because of just all of the life circumstances that happened in between. And so what does the new life look like or the new business look like. And so the concept of rebuilding is something that we really do work with people on.
Jeff Grant 30:35
The second is that it's like putting your hand under a flow of water. If it's scalding hot, or it's icy cold, it feels the same, our nerve receptors feel it the same way. So at the extremes, we're afraid of the extremes and we don't understand the extremes, and when people come out of prison, because there's the context we're talking about, but it can be through any life altering experience, we confuse limited opportunities with limitless opportunities. So there we are coming out of prison, and we think, Oh my god, I can't do this, I can't do that, I can't do that. And the truth is, there was a whole set of things that you couldn't do before, even before you had your problems. I was never going to be a brain surgeon, I was never going to be a classical pianist. There are a lot of things I couldn't do. But now to frame life as things that I can't do, as opposed to starting to embrace the things that are out there, it's a difficult thing for most people.
Jeff Grant 31:53
And I'll tell you what that comes down to, Scott. What it really comes down to is that people have forgotten the path, the thing that made them successful to begin with, because almost everybody didn't go to college and made their livelihood or made their success in the thing they went to college for. They tried one thing, and then that led to another and then that led to another, and then three or four or five decisions down the road, you kind of find something that works and you become successful at it. But people are forced to start over. And yet, what they won't do is push themselves out into the middle of the river, and then just let life decision making just happen. They want to hit one out of the park right away, they're going to make up for lost time, and that happens to very, very few people. Better to be a slap single hitter than a home run hitter.
Scott Case 32:53
It makes sense. So I want to see about kind of working up upstream a little bit for you. So you're operating in this emergency environment and you're taking people along as they come. Do you have ambitions to take the model that you've put together and help package it up so that either cities or states or other communities could take this on and your reach? This is a question from the audience, like, is there a way to work with local governments and state governments to sort of lay out these resources so that they can be made more readily available to more people?
Jeff Grant 33:38
The short answer to that is I'm not sure I ever want to do business with the government again. It didn't work out so well the last time. I think that there's an important cautionary tale here, and, a way of running our lives in a kind of ethical standard in which we can run our lives. That is useful if what we're going to do is be prescriptive, if we're going to be prophylactic, like so for example, I could genuinely stand in front of the incoming class at Goldman Sachs, for example, there's 1,000 people in the room, and I could stand in front of them and say 2% of you will be prosecuted the next five years, alright, so what do you want to do about it? And part of the problem there is that the benefits or the perceived benefits so outweigh the risk that maybe they're willing to take the risk, like if I stand to make $30 million, maybe this is a risk worth taking. But I can tell you as someone who probably lost $40 or $50 million of lifetime earning potential that the risks are not worth it. And it's not worth it in terms of relationships, in terms of opportunities, it's not worth it.
Jeff Grant 35:03
But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't take appropriate risks, that shouldn't be thoughtful, that you shouldn't be an entrepreneur. What it means is that you understand the risks and have a set of ethics that you don't depart from. I would rather spend my my life sorting, sorting and saying no, no, no, no to things that are not right for me and yes to the things, the few things, that are then spending my life trying to turn nose into yeses, because once it's a no, you can exhaust a lot of resources, a lot of energy trying to turn it into a yes. That may not be a macro business view. But from a personal ethics view, it's horrifying. So do I think that there's a wide audience for that message? Yes. Do I think that it's in the private sector? I definitely think it's in the private sector. Do I think that governments can learn from this? Well, I've spoken on behalf of the SBA, for example, I'm a guy who took advantage of an SBA loan, they did their job, they gave me the money, I didn't do my job, I didn't treat it the right way, and I lied on the application. So there's an example of outreach that could work really well that could wind up being a funnel of people who want to do well and want to do good and want to do it the right way.
Scott Case 36:56
Yeah, I think the whole path around ethics, a lot of MBAs and universities are teaching ethics through this and trying to put people in the situations. But one of the big challenges, and I'm sure you see this is, you don't really know what you're going to do until you're in the situation, then it's for real, right? Where you're making that choice of $30 million for me, and I've only got a 2% chance of getting caught, I'm not the one who's gonna get caught. It's a little bit like, I think I mentioned this in another episode here where one of the Ivy League's did a study of all their MBAs and they asked them a question about their judgment was their judgment above the average of the other people in their MBA class, and every one of them thought that they were above average, which, of course, is a violation of the concept of what an average is, they could have at least have said that they were at the median. But, I think we all think that we're going to be able to solve the problem in some way and we cross those lines.
Jeff Grant 37:58
Well, here's an easy way to look at it. The term business ethics probably means self policing, right? There's ethics. And business ethics shouldn't be different than ethics. But when the concept of business ethics came along in the 1950s, when the schools started to teach business ethics, what it really meant was we're departing from the concept of seminary based morals and ethics that were at the heart of you in the university system 100 years earlier. So now, we're going to police ourselves, we're going to create what business ethics means. And we'll adhere to that. Well, I don't want to go into a whole conversation about capitalism. But the point is that either it's right or it's wrong. And at least you should have that guide inside. And if it's touching on the wrong part, maybe it's something to look at.
Scott Case 39:01
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And so we'll land on that spot. Because I think that that's the key judgment for people. If it feels like it's wrong, it probably is. And, you know, you just stay away from it.
Scott Case 39:14
Well, I really appreciate you being here, Jeff. Thank you, thank you, thank you. There were a bunch of questions from folks, will probably post some things in LinkedIn. And you can obviously check out Jeff's website. He's got a podcast, as he mentioned. So if you want to listen to some of those, there were some questions about PPP loans. Jeff's done a session on them. We've done some sessions on them. So I'm happy to get your resources there. And we posted in the chat, the link to Jeff's website, which is just prisonist.org. With that, thank you very much.
Scott Case 39:48
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Founders Focus. What did you think? You got any feedback for us? Got a topic that you'd like us to discuss, or maybe a future co host? We'd love to hear from you. Just hit me up on LinkedIn at T Scott Case and join us at foundersfocus.com to stay up to date with the latest episodes and join us live every week at our Founders Focus sessions. Hope to see you there.